The Significance of His Sacrifice
This past weekend I had a long and great conversation with a friend of mine, who is Jewish. We were talking about religion and the differences in our beliefs, and he mentioned that he always had a hard time understanding the significance of Christ's death. He said he didn't understand why, if Christ is God, he had to physically suffer and die for our sins to be forgiven. I first cited the old testament system of sacrifice, and saying that Christ was fulfilling this covenant by being the perfect blood sacrifice for our guilt, but he brought up the fact that there are many sacrifices in the old testament that don't involve blood and death but rather grain and fruit and things like that.
He went on to say that the death just didn't make sense to him. Why die? Why not climb an impossible mountain for our sins? Why not walk on water for our sins? In short, why not just do one of many other things ordinary people can't do, and say that's good enough to cover our sins? Why is death a payment for sin?
I was really surprised by this question because I've never considered it before. In the system I've grown up in, I took it for granted that sacrifice absolved sin. Is there more to why? Here are the few ideas Marto and I have come up with:
1.) Because Death means more to us than anything else
2.) Because Death makes way for the Resurrection, which is an extremely powerful miracle
3.) Because it was Christ's suffering in hell on our behalf that really absolves our sin, and this was only possible after his death
4.) Because maybe grain and fruit offerings aren't guilt offerings - this needs more research
What do all of you think? Can I support the necessity of Christ's death using the old testament?
posted by RJ @ 12:46 PM
12 comments
12 Comments:
I personally think the reason that he had to become human, and suffer death for our sins was so that he could relate to us.
Yes, he could be the massive almighty god who no man can confront, who doesn't relate to his people, but instead he came down so that he felt what we feel.
He has suffered more than most of us will ever know or experience ourselves and that is why I think that most of us, as Christians, feel it is okay to have that personal relationship with him.
It's all about relating to us....in my opinion.
I agree on the relating to us part - I think it's a lot easier to understand why God would become a man to relate to those he loved, show them how to live, etc. The part that my friend finds confusing is why that means he has to die for us, and why we're supposed to be so excited about it.
From what I understand, in ancient Hebrew culture sin and death are almost synonymous. According to the account in Genesis, death was the punishment for sin. We've analyzed it a lot of different ways (spiritual death, etc) but I don't think that the Hebrews took it as anything less than literal -- sin causes death. Jesus dying signifies that He was punished for our sins. Furthermore, His resurrection shows His victory over sin and death. Before Jesus sin lead to death, even His. Now that He has been resurrected death no longer has the same power. Its not just that its a great miracle, but now sin does not lead to permanent death for any of us because we will be resurrected just like Jesus. Before Jesus no one had escaped death (except maybe Elisha and that other guy in Genesis who God "takes away"). Death had lasting power in human experience, but now someone has permanently escaped it. So that changes everything.
Furthermore, it would stand to reason that the animal sacrifices by the Hebrews did not, in fact, cover their sin. Paul says that Jesus' sacrifice is for all people during all times. Therefore the blood of animal sacrifice did not cover the sin, it merely represented what God was going to do. The sacrifices pointed to Jesus, they did not have any power to atone in themselves. Then we can get away from developing some system where God needs some blood to cover sin, regardless of what blood it is and look instead at the fact that sin leads to death. The blood of the sacrifices was not to cover the sin, but to signify that nothing short of death can pay for sin and that one day God would atone for sin with a sacrifice of His son.
Does that answer the question of why it had to be death? Probably not completely, but its a start. In addition to all of this, I think that it shows the extent of God's love. Climbing a mountain or walking on water are supernatural, but they don't include suffering. God shows that His love is so great that He will suffer the worst thing that humans can suffer in order to reach us. I don't think that alone is a good explanation, but I think it can add to it. Maybe the punishment for sin is death because death is the worst thing we can imagine? Maybe the point is that sin is bad, and to make this point God sets up the punishment as the worst thing we can imagine. Then to show His love He goes through that very thing and frees us from it. Personally I do not believe that God couldn't have just forgave Adam and Eve (assuming they're real) right when they first sinned and never required blood or Jesus. I don't pretend to understand why He made it that way, but it seems silly to me to think that there are some laws above God that He was bound to follow that involve sin and blood. Especially since blood is a created thing attached to human existence, I would say that death as the end of a life, not the continuance of life in some "spirit world," is the only thing that makes sense when talking about some metaphyiscal need for atonement of sin.
I think standing makes some excellent points: mainly that we can't 'know' why God did things the way he did, but we can make some sense of them, which standing did quite nicely.
My only other comment would be to your Jewish friend that while there were bloodless offerings, most of those were thanksgiving offerings, not atonement for sin. Hebrews makes that clear, we are dealing with the day of atonement here in Jesus, which was necessarily done by blood, not just because they always happened to have a goat running around.
If the question is then "why did God want goats to atone for sin in a blood sacrifice?" then the answer is "How in the world am I supposed to know?" I guess this is where we appeal to revelation and say "stop trying to reason everything out (Dt. 29:29), some things are only to be revealed at this present age."
That's what I've got, but it is a really good question. Another one I was thinking about this morning was "What is the Gospel?" Seriously? I may write on this.
I don't know that I would say that Christ had to die. I don't know. Maybe he did. I know this threatens the idea that most Christians have about God's perfect, totally sweet plan from the beginning, but I think Christ chose to die, and God chose to recognize Christ's death as valid. The passages about the garden of Gethsemane in Luke and Matthew are tough to get around, but I wouldn't want to conclude from them that God somehow "wanted" Christ to die. Maybe the firefighter is a good analogy--we don't send them into burning buildings in order that they might die, but if they do we count it as sacrifice.
Also, the Bible was written by people steeped in the Old Testament, so naturally it would shape the way they wrote everything.
So, the short answer to your question is "yes." The long answer is, "I have a tough time with this issue."
I don't know if anyone else has said this because I didn't read the comments...so I'm sorry if this is a repeat.
The Eastern Orthodox church holds that salvation happened at the incarnation...the moment when God became human and took Humanity into himself is when we were saved. He could have lived a long life and then died of natural causes, we would still be saved.
Sure it doesn't explain why he did die...but I thought it was interesting.
What I cannot say, I steal:
Excerpts from John Donne’s “Holy Sonnets”
I
THOU hast made me, And shall thy worke decay?
Repaire me now, for now mine end doth haste,
I runne to death, and death meets me as fast,
And all my pleasures are like yesterday;
I dare not move my dimme eyes any way,
Despaire behind, and death before doth cast
Such terrour, and my feeble flesh doth waste
By sinne in it, which it t'wards hell doth weigh;
Onely thou art above, and when towards thee
By thy leave I can looke, I rise againe;
But our old subtle foe so tempteth me,
That not one houre my selfe I can sustaine;
Thy Grace may wing me to prevent his art,
And thou like Adamant draw mine iron heart.
II
As due by many titles I resigne
My selfe to thee, O God, first I was made
By thee, and for thee, and when I was decay'd
Thy blood bought that, the which before was thine;
I am thy sonne, made with thy selfe to shine,
Thy servant, whose paines thou hast still repaid,
Thy sheepe, thine Image, and, till I betray'd
My selfe, a temple of thy Spirit divine;
Why doth the devill then usurpe on mee?
Why doth he steale, nay ravish that's thy right?
Except thou rise and for thine own worke fight,
Oh I shall soone despaire, when I doe see
That thou lov'st mankind well, yet wilt'not chuse me,
And Satan hates mee, yet is loth to lose mee.
X
Death be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadfull, for, thou art not soe,
For, those, whom thou think'st, thou dost overthrow,
Die not, poore death, nor yet canst thou kill mee.
From rest and sleepe, which but thy pictures bee,
Much pleasure, then from thee, much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee doe goe,
Rest of their bones, and soules deliverie.
Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poyson, warre, and sicknesse dwell,
And poppie, or charmes can make us sleepe as well,
And better than thy stroake; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleepe past, wee wake eternally,
And death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.
XI
Spit in my face you Jewes, and pierce my side,
Buffet, and scoffe, scourge, and crucifie mee,
For I have sinn'd, and sinn'd, and onely hee,
Who could do no iniquitie, hath dyed:
But by my death can not be satisfied
My sinnes, which passe the Jewes impiety:
They kill'd once an inglorious man, but I
Crucifie him daily, being now glorified.
Oh let mee then, his strange love still admire:
Kings pardon, but he bore our punishment.
And Jacob came cloth'd in vile harsh attire
But to supplant, and with gainfull intent:
God cloth'd himselfe in vile mans flesh, that so
Hee might be weake enought to suffer woe.
XIV
Batter my heart, three person'd God; for, you
As yet but knocke, breathe, shine, and seeke to mend,
That I may rise, and stand, o'erthrow mee, and bend
Your force, to breake, blowe, burn and make me new.
I, like an usurpt towne, to another due,
Labour to admit you, but Oh, to no end,
Reason your viceroy in mee, mee should defend,
But is captiv'd , and proves weake or untrue.
Yet dearely I love you, and would be loved faine,
But am betroth'd unto your enemie:
Divorce mee, untie, or breake that knot againe,
Take mee to you, imprison mee, for I
Except you enthrall mee, never shall be free,
Nor ever chast, except you ravish mee.
Charles - what? I mean, I think we can agree that God didn't want Christ to suffer, but those passages you mentioned aren't just hard to get around - they're impossible. Jesus says several times, "look, I don't want to die, but this is my father's will, so I'm going to." I'll totally grant that this is probably indicative of God's desire for the results brought about by Christ's death, and not the death directly, but...so what?
I don't really have too much new to add to this conversation, but I do agree that Christ had to die and that death is the greatest gift. Also, when you think about it, the only (if any) power that Satan really had was death. It was sort of his dominion in the Old Testament...it wasn't until Christ died and was resurrected that he truly conquered death.
Does or did Satan really have the power of death? I always thought the traditional view was that his only real power was lies, and then whatever power God or man granted him in the moment.
Ok, from what I understand, Christ had to die to conquer death. Now how could it be conquered if it was already His to begin with? I don't think that Satan had the "power" of death...it was more like a figurehead position that he mistook for absolute power. It was more like Satan was being kicked off the board.
redhurt, you wrote:
"but...so what?"
I don't know. Like I said, I have a tough time with this issue. I wasn't offering a well-constructed argument--just some thoughts.
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